Base and Vehicle Makeover?
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Joined: 3rd Jul 2016
Rank: Member
Likes 2
22nd Jul 2016

Recently I have been working on a base and have come across a couple of things that sparked some concerns. Most of the items pertain to vehicle storage and base viability.

First off, with so many traders around and the low cost of weapons and gear, the need for a base to store gear is not really there. I can carry everything on me I need to have to play. There are no weapons that are so expensive or rare that it makes a base for item storage viable.

So, why have a base? I feel the biggest reason people build bases is to store vehicles in a safe manner. This is a good reason however it runs in to 2 problems.

1) Not all vehicles will fit in a garage door such as the unarmed tank, I know this because I died trying to get it un-stuck. So if you want to keep one, it needs to be out in the open which then allows for helicopters to pick it up whether it is locked or not.
2) Vehicles such as helicopters fall victim to the 1hr unlock setting making storing on truly difficult because anyone that can land a small helicopter in your Heli hanger can then fly away with it.

So how can we solve these issues?

The problems seems to primarily come from the 1hr unlock timer and the allowing of vehicles to be picked up even if they are locked. If we were to extend the timer to perhaps 24/48 hours this would allow players to play consistently to not log in daily to find their helicopter gone. If we could also limit the ability to lift vehicles that are locked, this would fix the issue of not being about to fit some vehicles inside the garage door.

Taking these steps creates the following:

1) Players can make use of helicopters and bigger vehicles with the knowledge that the time invested in acquiring the vehicles will not be wasted an hour after they log off.
2) Vehicles not secured or accidentally left unlocked will still be able to be taken and or destroyed so searching for unsecured and vulnerable vehicles will be something players can do.
3) Players will be able to utilize their vehicles outside of a garage without worry that while they are fighting a km down the road that some guy in his rented heli just took off with their expensive vehicle.
4) These settings will allow for players to feel a sense of accomplishment and less of a feeling of always starting over because the items they spent a good amount of time getting can be secured and have a good chance at still being there the next day, for instance the Armed Hunter costs 25k to purchase. Losing that to someone in a heli an hour after you log off is a real hard hit to take and tends to throw salt on a players game time.

I am out of time for lunch so ill wrap it up, but will be checking often for replies. What do you think about the suggestions made and are the actions I listed even possible to program without causing a heavy burden on the server?
Joined: 29th Dec 2014
Rank: Server Admin
Likes 55
22nd Jul 2016

There is a way to keep players from stealing your choppers once in your base. Just place a wall next to it, so that the blades hit the wall and it will damage the chopper to where they can't steal it. If we raised the lock time on the vehicles, the server becomes loaded with all locked vehicles..then nobody can purchase a vehicle because there is a set max limit..unless rented of course.
Thoughts to ponder as if I were a player in the server.

1. I wouldn't leave a $25k vehicle in my base that most of the other players probably know where it would be over time. Before logging off for the night, I would leave myself plenty of time to drive it to where I would believe the least amount of air traffic/foot traffic would be. The way to test this out would be to take any of the cheaper vehicles to an area, hide it in the bushes, and see if it comes up missing the next time I log on. If it does, I'd find a different spot until I found an area where the vehicle is still there after being gone for a while. Hide it any way you can away from your base. Your base is going to get attacked plenty of times, so why leave it there to get exploded or stolen.
2. If I wasn't worried about perm vehicles, then I'd just contantly rent vehicles and sell them back when I am finished with them. You get the same amount back with any vehicle purchase and sellback.

If we changed the option of locked vehicles being able to be lifted. Then when you airlift a chopper back to safezone. Some idiot that just doesn't care about the server rules, comes out and hops in your vehicle and drives off before you can even blink an eye and land your helicopter. Yea, that'd be cool too. There's always going to be issues on a server where the general public can join. You take one issue and try to rectify it by changing something, another issue can pop up. Stealing and destroying vehicles is part of the game.
Joined: 3rd Jul 2016
Rank: Member
Likes 2
23rd Jul 2016

1) With the chopper idea, that sounds like a great way to get your base blown up along with the heli resulting in the same result as above, logging on to have nothing left from the night before.

2) It feels that your whole basis is that no one should bother saving expensive vehicles and just rent them. If this is the case then why even have the option to buy a perm vehicle? Also, if a base can not keep the most expensive item in the game safe then there is something wrong with bases. Perhaps bases need to be more resilient vs explosives so that keeping an expensive vehicle is a viable option.

3) Note that I really like you Ha4k, but the statement about making sure to get back to the trader before restart is rather ignorant to the gameplay. Many people are out doing missions or actually playing the game close to downtime and being able to lock your vehicle and log back in to have it there is great. Stating that everyone should go to the safe zone at server start, rent a vehicle, then quit playing early to go and resell the vehicle or risk having to run back to trader is really absurd. As is the idea of leaving a vehicle out on the map...I mean really? You see the travel markers, is there actually anywhere on the map people do not travel? This all sounds like a big pain in the ass work around of a setting change that I do not feel would cause that big of a problem.

You state that extending the vehicle timer would cause players not to be able to buy perm vehicles, well, Epoch does that for us every restart and it takes about 2 hours before there is room, so what is the difference? Also, the map is cluttered with crap vehicles like jet skis and motorcycles that no one wants, this would cause the server players to go out and destroy the crap vehicles to make room for them to buy perm vehicles. Also, a 24-48 hour lock time is not really all that long, it would truly only benefit the dedicated players of the server who are on daily to reset the timers. Players who are passing by or play casually will not be able to store vehicles forever.

When it comes to the lifting of locked vehicles, I agree that it is possible for this to happen, however there will always be someone screwing over people in game and that is not a reason to keep a bad system in place. You could also make lifting limited to vehicles the player owns, which would mean that if the vehicle is unlocked, the heli pilot would have to get in to the vehicle to claim ownership and could then lock it and lift it. This would solve the problem in the trader you mentioned and keep players rightfully locked vehicles safe.

Also, the traders currently require you to have the full purchase amount for a vehicle before giving you the option of renting. Might be something to look at.
Last Edit: 23rd Jul 2016 by SinisterPrime
Joined: 29th Dec 2014
Rank: Server Admin
Likes 144
23rd Jul 2016

bam
Joined: 13th Jun 2015
Rank: Server Moderator
Likes 11
24th Jul 2016

Gonna add my 2 cents in here.
As you might have noticed,rules do not mean shit to a lot of players, hence the constant influx of banned people.As a longer lock out timer might quell a few people from standing around and waiting while no one is looking, it will also make sure they are there when it becomes unlocked or the owner is coming , they will get ambushed by said people.Then these people , who just came online to get their own vehicles, will now get ambushed by others, get accused of camping them or bases or vehicles.. So.. then we have to deal with that on top of other issues and from there it snowballs even further into other issues. ..Simply prolonging one timer at one end opens up other issues at the other end. I have an issue with you saying its 2 hours before people can buy vehicles.I have never heard anyone complaining about an 2 hour wait to buy/rent a vehicle.I make sure ,when I am online, that anyone who needs one , will get one.I delete a good amount of boats and scooters every day.If there happen to be a longer wait , then no admins or owners are online. In the Real World, after an exodus or world wide event, you be hard pressed to even find any vehicles for days or weeks. So the realism has to be somewhat close to RL events.
I think most problems acutaly on the servers stems from people not reading the rules, adhering to them or are just simply do not care what belongs to them.And that will never change as long its an open public server.Sure, the rules and wiki can use some improvement.Rules need to to be updated a bit.. Wiki needs stuff added.

Base life...
It takes a ton of stuff to destroy a base.Not cheap by no means. Neither is building it.( if you have some sort of nice one , at least) How much effort do you think is enough to destroy one? These bases are way strong and if compared to RL houses take HUGE beating before they blow. and even if they where made stronger , does not mean they still cant take out your heli or Strider or whatnot parked inside.They just glitch or find another way to get at them.It happens all the time.
When people log off and store/hide their vehicles, and are locked or unable to lift them, you would think they would have them when they come back? people will destroy them to the point of non repair, or will push them into the water so they cant be repaired either..They will find a way ..lol.
I think its a good idea to look at things from a different perspective and see what the issues are.

Joined: 3rd Jul 2016
Rank: Member
Likes 2
24th Jul 2016

QuoteGonna add my 2 cents in here.
As you might have noticed,rules do not mean shit to a lot of players, hence the constant influx of  banned people.As a longer lock out timer might  quell a few people from standing around and waiting while no one is looking, it will also make sure they are there when it becomes unlocked or the owner is coming , they will get ambushed by said people.Then these people , who just came online to get their own vehicles, will now get ambushed by others, get accused of camping them or bases or vehicles.. So.. then we have to deal with that on top of other issues and from there it snowballs even further into other issues. ..Simply prolonging one timer at one end opens up other issues at the other end. I have an issue with you saying its 2 hours before people can buy vehicles.I have never heard anyone complaining about an 2 hour wait to buy/rent a vehicle.I make sure ,when I am online, that anyone who needs one , will get one.I delete a good amount of boats and scooters every day.If there happen to be a longer wait , then no admins or owners are online. In the Real World, after an exodus or world wide event, you be hard pressed to even find any vehicles for days or weeks. So the realism has to be somewhat close to RL events.
I think  most problems acutaly on the servers stems from people not reading the rules, adhering to them or are just simply do not care what  belongs to them.And that will never change as long its an open public server.Sure, the rules and wiki can use some improvement.Rules need to to be updated a bit.. Wiki needs stuff added.

Base life...
It takes a ton of stuff to destroy a base.Not cheap by no means. Neither is building it.( if you have some sort of nice one , at least) How much effort do you think is enough to destroy one? These bases are way strong and if compared to RL houses take HUGE beating before they blow. and even if they where made stronger , does not mean they still cant take out your heli or Strider or whatnot parked inside.They just glitch or find another way to get at them.It happens all the time.
When people log off and store/hide their vehicles, and are locked or unable to lift them, you would think they would have them when they come back? people will destroy them to the point of non repair, or will push them into the water so they cant be repaired either..They will find a way ..lol.
I think its a good idea to look at things from a different perspective  and see what the issues are.
With all due respect, basing your decisions on the fact that people will break the rules is a poor way of going about things. This is not a discussion about how to make it harder for players to break the rules, it is a discussion on how to make the game better for those who do what they are supposed to.

The statement that people will wait for it to unlock is really a stretch. No one in their right mind is going to wait for 24 hours for the possibility of a vehicle they could get the money for in a 10th of the time. Raids are raids and they happen no matter what the timer is. The time change changes nothing in your first paragraph. People still camp, people still ambush, it does not change anything other then the possibility that a base that does not get fully raided may still have their vehicles there on the next day.  I do not feel that raids are generally done for the vehicles as much as for the safes and gear available to sell. I honestly see no snowball effect here, in fact all I see is this solving points you mentioned yourself.

1) We should not require an admin online to buy a perm vehicle. I for one have tried buying vehicles around the 2 hr mark and was forced to wait for someone to come and sell one to buy mine which left them waiting to buy theirs. It isn't that admins should be online all the time to delete crap vehicles, vehicles should be valuable enough to have the players search out the crap vehicles to make room themselves. You say you take issue with me saying it takes 2 hours, I have an issue with you acting as if I am lying. I play the game constantly, I am in the server and deal with the situations as they happen. No one can expect you to be there all the time, but on the same note please do not act as if my statement is false because you are available sometimes and help people at those times. When you are not online, there IS a wait and truthfully at times it is after dark before spots are available. This was never an attack on you or the admins, simply a truthful statement from someone who spends around 6 hrs a night in your server.

2) The whole base idea was brought up by H4wk who basically stated that he wouldn't feel safe keeping a vehicle in a base. I was simply stating that if a base is not enough to keep a vehicle somewhat safe then there is a problem with bases. I am fully aware of the cost of raiding a base and spend a good amount of time taking part in such. My point was that a base not being a good place to keep your vehicles made bases pointless, I did not say they were not strong. I have found only 1 base that was un-raidable due to a glitch of sorts but beyond that even a crap made base still takes a lot of money in explosives.

3) While you focus on the aspect of bases being raided, you seem to bypass all the bases that are or are built well enough that they do not get raided. This is the situations I am speaking of. Say I have a tank which will not fit inside my base doors but I still want to keep it perhaps in a courtyard. Could someone destroy it? Of course! But that is likely to be harder then a heli simply hooking it and flying off with it an hour after I log off. The timer change is more intended to fight the helicopters lifting vehicles out of bases because they are unlocked and can be sold. If the timer was longer and the helicopters could only pick up vehicles that they owned it would stop players from lifting out locked vehicles and waiting the short time before they sold them. It leaves the security of the vehicles in the hands of the players and still offers the chance at the helicopters to grab some vehicles if the owners are negligent. We are not trying to stop all base raiding and vehicles loss, just the cheap way players are exploiting some systems in the game such as the taking vehicles people spent time and effort in to acquiring an hour after they log of with no chance of the owners fighting to keep them.

As far as the realism, that is not an argument you can make in a game that allows random people to have the ability to pilot and repair helicopters, look over walls in third person, and a gun with magical revival abilities is usable by people running around in their underwear.

I greatly respect the work you all do in this server, I simply am putting out ideas to make the server better and hopefully make your job easier.
Last Edit: 24th Jul 2016 by SinisterPrime
Joined: 29th Dec 2014
Rank: Server Admin
Likes 55
24th Jul 2016

Sinister, one thing you are either misunderstanding about the perm vehicles. I will try to lay it down as simply as I can. We have had people come to us about raising the perm vehicle count, the 1 hr locks, and other certain things. There is a BIG reason we do not raise the vehicle count. Every object on the server goes against your FPS. Raising the vehicle count would not make the server better. A lot of players play on our server because we do have better FPS then a lot of the other Epoch servers out there. As for the 1 hr timer on the vehicles. We have had the timer raised before, we tried it out and a LOT of players actually complained to us on teamspeak about that issue.

As far as being 'forced to wait' to purchase a vehicle. Why not quit waiting for something and get out there and destroy somebody else's vehicle or find one on the map and destroy it, or come back and sell it. The players have the ability and all options to go out and do this. Not trying to be mean here just putting it out there like it is. It's a part of Epoch. We don't block players from destroying vehicle (unless they are in the safe zone, of course)

The only other option as far as the problem with bases/base walls. I will talk with Viper. Epoch was made to work without RPG's. So we might pull them out. It does take quite a lot of satchels to take down walls. We could possibly raise the price of satchels...but as was stated. When you start messing with one thing, you can hurt another. If we did this, then why raid bases. Takes away more from the game.

And here's another that could have repurcussions due to the rule we have in place for 30 min before a restart. You could hide your base down in a valley in an area around a bunch of trees, so it wouldn't be able to be seen from the sky when flying over it, and build it well off the beaten path. Some people build their bases 8 stories tall because they want the PVP action.

Why make the game too easy for the players? Nobody will want to play it for long if you're handed everything in a candy jar. Viper already has made it easier on the players by putting in the black market traders where you can buy everything. Vanilla Epoch comes with traders that have barely anything until the players start selling items. Only then can you buy certain items and it will be loot that spawns in the shelves, cabinets, trash piles, couches, chairs, and some other places. Vehicles which spawn on the map are the ONLY vehicles available. You can't purchase a vehicle from the traders unless one has been sold by a player to that trader.

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